Hero reworking discussion

Discuss game play, hero balance, and new abilities for pre-existing heroes here.
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akuma
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Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:00 am

Once we make all hero's in house viable we can start adding new hero's to the game so i make this to speed it along and give the public a say in what changes are to come.
this will be the hub for all of the reworking discussion and i will be adding link's for all the hero's here to there respective discussion
here is a list of all the hero's that need some form of change

in house suggested banned hero's

Siege Tank good-only banned on desert
Zergling work in progress
Mutalisk work in progress



Generally under played heroes
Reaper done for now
Thor done for now
Banshee done for now
Reaver done for now
Probe nothing decided yet
Oracle good
Probe nothing decided yet
Reaver good
Tempest good
Diamond Back good
Marine done for now
Spectre good
Thor good
Vulture nothing decided yet
Warhound good
Baneling done for now
Brutalisk good
Hybrid Reaver good
Overlord nothing decided yet
Queen nothing decided yet
Swarm Host good
Ultralisk done for now
Viper nothing decided yet


Protoss


Archon good
Carrier good
Colossus good
Dark Archon good
Dark Templar good
Dark Zealot good
High Templar good
Hybrid Destroyer good
Immortal good
Oracle good
Phoenix good
Preserver good
Probe nothing decided yet
Reaver good
Sentry good
Stalker good
Tempest good
Void Ray good
Zealot good

Terran

Ares done for now
Banshee done for now
Diamond Back good
Firebat work in progress
Ghost good
Hellion done for now
Marauder done for now
Marine done for now
Medic done for now
Predator good
Raven done for now
Reaper done for now
SCV nothing decided yet
Siege Tank good-only banned on desert
Spectre good
Thor good
Viking good
Vulture nothing decided yet
Warhound


Zerg

Baneling done for now
Broodling good for now
Brutalisk good
Corruptor done for now
Defiler good
Drone done for now
Hybrid Reaver
Hydralisk done for now
Infestor good
Lurker good
Mutalisk work in progress
Nydus Worm done for now
Overlord nothing decided yet
Queen nothing decided yet
Roach done for now
Swarm Host
Ultralisk done for now
Viper
Zergling work in progress

Other
Builders work in progress



if i missed any let me know and ill add them to this list
if theirs any broken links let me or a mod know via pm

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Zenthon » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:14 am

Out of these, here are the ones I think need reworks or major mechanics changes:
akuma wrote:in house banned hero's
Queen
SCV
Probe
Baneling


Generally under played hero's
Corruptor
Drone
Hydralisk
Nydus Worm
Roach
Stalker
Colossus
Immortal
Marauder
Raven
Reaper
Hellion
Ares
Thor
Banshee


FYI, be rework or major mechanic change I mean that at least one ability has to be drastically nerfed/buffed to levels incomparable to what it gives now and/or needs to be scrapped entirely.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:22 am

i would like to start with banned hero's as there going to be the hardest to fix

(Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:23 pm)

and i think the best one to start with is the banelings

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Nubbins » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:27 pm

Individual hero discussion should go to separate threads. I'll split off the bling and queen discussion. If you want to talk about something else like raven and drone either bump a correct thread or make a new one.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby mia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:42 pm

Akuma, i'm not sure how much work is involved, but i think this can be done rather fast if we help you out.
I think the best way to tackle this is this:
1) Make a poll with all these heros, we vote for the hero that needs the fixing the most, and the 3 heroes with highest votes (1 for each race) get worked on.
2) Make an individual thread for each, where we can discuss the heroes.
3) Us the players try to play those heroes as much as we can, and give feedback in that thread. Let that go on for a week or so.
4) Make the update based on the conclusions reached in the threads, close the threads and make new ones just like the last, 1 for each hero.
5) Us the players continue to play with the "fixed" heroes for another week, and give feedback on them.
6) Make a second update based on the feedback of the second thread, they would be more-less well balanced by then, even if not perfectly, and by that time it's best we move to other heroes.

I would gladly help with this of course, in what i can. Then again i have no idea what the work involved is, so it might be too hard. But i think this is the best way to tackle the problem, so i'll just leave this here as a suggestion.

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Yiffeh » Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:58 pm

Here's a different approach, since there's so many to do, making rapid changes seems like a more viable choice.

We might not agree on all of the choices for changes, but I would like to see more usuable heroes faster than 1 every month.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby mia » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:10 pm

Well, what i propose would be six times faster than that, heroes could be well balanced in 3 months.

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:52 pm

mia wrote:Akuma, i'm not sure how much work is involved, but i think this can be done rather fast if we help you out.
I think the best way to tackle this is this:
1) Make a poll with all these heros, we vote for the hero that needs the fixing the most, and the 3 heroes with highest votes (1 for each race) get worked on.
2) Make an individual thread for each, where we can discuss the heroes.
3) Us the players try to play those heroes as much as we can, and give feedback in that thread. Let that go on for a week or so.
4) Make the update based on the conclusions reached in the threads, close the threads and make new ones just like the last, 1 for each hero.
5) Us the players continue to play with the "fixed" heroes for another week, and give feedback on them.
6) Make a second update based on the feedback of the second thread, they would be more-less well balanced by then, even if not perfectly, and by that time it's best we move to other heroes.

I would gladly help with this of course, in what i can. Then again i have no idea what the work involved is, so it might be too hard. But i think this is the best way to tackle the problem, so i'll just leave this here as a suggestion.


im all for this but this way would be very time consuming and i fear the same thing would happen as when ck was dev the discussion dragged on untill no agreement was met
and nothing was done
Yiffeh wrote:Here's a different approach, since there's so many to do, making rapid changes seems like a more viable choice.

We might not agree on all of the choices for changes, but I would like to see more usuable heroes faster than 1 every month.

this is probably the best course of action here as we can just go in and change something if it needs it on the fly

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Nubbins » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:24 pm

Honestly the easiest way to stimulate discussion would be to make small or aggressive changes. A big reason why discussion always slows down is because usually nothing comes out of it.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:35 pm

ya

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby dapperdannman » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:25 am

You should I think add the siege tank to the list.

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:15 am

why
explain why the tank would need any sort of buff

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby BehalfofTheCommunity » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:36 pm

in house banned hero's
Builders
Queen
SCV
Probe

Agree completely with the linked discussion. Glad to see many of the changes were implemented.

Baneling

Baneling is fine, atleast in pubs, because it is rarely used. In the hands of a great player, of course it is frustrating to play against. But due to its infrequency of play, I wouldn't touch it for now. Perhaps just keep it banned in yall's tournaments.

Generally under played heroes
Corruptor - cacoon is a joke, especially considering how mobile nydus worm keeps you to the team beacon. This skill alone is the problem for the corruptor. I saw a poll awhile back on what type of skill should replace it (offensive, defensive, passive), and I would suggest going that route.

Drone - I would like to see its first skill replaced with an energy based heal to make it one of the most immobile, tankiest hero's in the game. If you play normal SC2, you know that the Spine Crawler is the best static defense structure of all three races, and I think emulating that in ha3x would increase how often its played.

Hydralisk - its ultimate is the reason why this hero is underutilized. I don't know how to fix it, because I don't know what the role of the hero is. Is it designed to be burst DPS type hero, creep clear, AA hero?

Nydus Worm - despite its great wormling/farming ability, this hero is too high APM to be fun. If I had to to change anything, I would just outright remove this hero from the rotation. It's a well balanced hero, its just not fun to play, especially if the Ultralisk hasn't been chosen.

Roach - reduce the cost of its energy based skills. This will turn it more into a pusher. Fixed.

Stalker - perhaps replace its shadow wave ability with an energy based, lock down/snare ability. Or, turn its shadow wave ability into a wall ability like the Preserver's ice wall. I think its a fantastic hero already because its so easy to gank. But if it is underutilized, I think this would be the skill to replace.

Colossus - much like the Nydus Worm, if the Archon or Ultralisk is available, both of these heros are preferred and chosen more often than the Nydus Worm or Colossus hero. To that extent, I will group my suggestion for the Colossus with that of the Immortal.

The Ultralisk doesn't hit air, so why should the Colossus or Immortal have to? I would replace both of these hero's AA energy-based with a skill likes the Viking's Battle Tactics skill. Call it "Crystalline Servos" or something cheezy. Same attack and movement speed buffs as the Viking's skill.

Marauder - much like the Stalker's shadow wave ability, the Maruader's explosive barrel skill doesn't fit the "fable" of the hero. He is a hero that shoots explosive grenades, right? Why not replace his explosive barrel skill with an energy based AOE or (preferably) a single-target grenade skill? It might sound redundant to the Firebat, but the two hero's are vastly different in their ultimates as well as their role on the battlefield. The Firebat is designed more for creep clear and tanking whereas the Maruader is designed more to be a snare hero.

Raven - like the Nydus Worm hero, this hero is underutilized because it requires higher APM and map awareness. Its a well balanced hero, its just that its not fun to play because you have to be aware that you can and should shoot your cruise missle half way across the map to assassinate an enemy hero.

Reaper - make it gankier. Make it Terran's equivalent of protoss's Stalker hero and it will see more play. I would buff its Beserk skill by 1)applying a speed decrease to the unit being attacked and 2)allowing the Reaper to fly into the air and hit air units. Maybe also buff its Gas Mask ability.

Hellion - if you ever get permission or licensing or whatever to use HoTS models, changing the Hellion ultimate into a "Transform into a Hellbat" ability I think would net it more play. To that extent, I never heard, why aren't you using HoTS models?

Ares - its repair skill is too costly and ineffective. Its ultimate is too costly, has too long of a delay until it hits, and must be able to hit air targets as well as ground targets. Fixed.

Thor - like the Nydus Worm and Raven hero, its just not fun to play despite being well balanced. But unlike the Nydus Worm and Raven hero, I think its not fun to play because its not action-packed enough. Perhaps replace its Javelin Missels skill with the Viking's Battle Tactics skill.

Banshee - I applaud the AOE buff to the Banshee's Suppressive Drone skill, but I think it didn't go far enough. Its AOE needs to be a little larger, reaveal targets that are in its affect, and reduce movement speed further. In addition to that, I would consider replacing its Cluster Warheads ability with that of the Vikings Battle Tactics skill. As of now, when I play Banshee, I play it as a support role to the Ghost hero; I act as his escort to get near their base to nuke. To me, the Banshee should be the pinnacle of infiltration hero's; not a mediocre creep clearer.

if i missed any let me know and ill add them to this list - I'm shocked to see the Reaver not on the list. It's a great hero, but takes way too much APM for the average player to fully leverage its burst potential. If this is the reason for its underutilization, then I think the only fix would be to allow it to use its burst damage will still loaded in its Warp Prism transport...at the cost of lower overall damage, or lower life and shields on the Warp Prism.

In response to dapperdannman and anyone else who has the same contention, the Tank hero isn't on the list because its a great hero that is just difficult to play. You will see many of your average players get 10+ kills with this hero in pubs. In addition, its Scan skill is one of the most powerful spells in the game.

If anyone finds playing the Tank hero difficult to play and think it needs a buff then 1)stay back further in the future and 2)avoid the Phoenix and Lurker hero like the plague. Or always buddy up with another hero so you aren't so easily ganked.

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:00 pm

BehalfofTheCommunity wrote:Drone - I would like to see its first skill replaced with an energy based heal to make it one of the most immobile, tankiest hero's in the game. If you play normal SC2, you know that the Spine Crawler is the best static defense structure of all three races, and I think emulating that in ha3x would increase how often its played.
O you don't say i don't remember there ever being any such unit called a spine crawler in sc1 they were sunkens and guessing from how you were confused your about 17 maybe 18 years old


as for the rest of the post im glad to see ideas

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Siafu » Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:05 pm

@behalfofthecommunity
in game name and cc? would be insightful, i imagine

baneling - you're totally wrong about this
corruptor - you've got half of it right
drone - good luck convincing people to let go of drone swarm
hydralisk - lol
nydus - too high apm? wut?
roach - a decent suggestion, actually
stalker - bad suggestion, hardly anything can escape it already
Colosuss - eh, okay
marauder - i've thought the same thing but barrels do have a lot of utility when used rightly...hard to give them up now
raven - you're half right but raven gets destroyed late game in house. it supports and it bursts but isn't good enough at either without items.
reaper - does need buff, but not what you suggest.
hellion - it has been stated over and over that we can't use hots assets yet because we would cut the playerbase
Ares - ares needs a rework from the ground up, imo
Thor - bad suggestion, thor doesn't need more damage, it needs to take advantage of it's durability more.
banshee - man you are drinking the viking battle tactics kool-aid, aren't you? What is that 3 times you've suggested it?
tank - nope, not quite balanced yet, but much better than it was. Still falls off A LOT late game.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby BehalfofTheCommunity » Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:58 pm

@ Siafu

Haha, maybe I have been drinking too much Kool Aid. Why did I suggest four hero's have this ability? Because I think that it is a balanced and universal mechanic that can be easily applied to many heros. Just like the speed boost on the Phoenix, VR, Reaper, bLing, Ling, Ultra, and Hydra makes sense on those heros.

I'll remain anonymous for now, I'm still not that talented at this game yet ;)

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Siafu » Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:28 am

Jokes aside, the battle tactics idea is good in itself just maybe not for those heroes. Having a passive that functions in two ways depending on the situation is fun and allows for players to make more decisions. I drink the mutalisk echolocation kool-aid, myself so don't worry :P

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:00 pm

im not going to slow down next hero?

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Ctpcbsi » Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:22 pm

Siafu wrote:@behalfofthecommunity
in game name and cc? would be insightful, i imagine

baneling - you're totally wrong about this
corruptor - you've got half of it right
drone - good luck convincing people to let go of drone swarm
hydralisk - lol
nydus - too high apm? wut?
roach - a decent suggestion, actually
stalker - bad suggestion, hardly anything can escape it already
Colosuss - eh, okay
marauder - i've thought the same thing but barrels do have a lot of utility when used rightly...hard to give them up now
raven - you're half right but raven gets destroyed late game in house. it supports and it bursts but isn't good enough at either without items.
reaper - does need buff, but not what you suggest.
hellion - it has been stated over and over that we can't use hots assets yet because we would cut the playerbase
Ares - ares needs a rework from the ground up, imo
Thor - bad suggestion, thor doesn't need more damage, it needs to take advantage of it's durability more.
banshee - man you are drinking the viking battle tactics kool-aid, aren't you? What is that 3 times you've suggested it?
tank - nope, not quite balanced yet, but much better than it was. Still falls off A LOT late game.



I mentioned a while ago with ghost but do all heros have to last till late game? I thin its a good thing to have some heros that have the advantage early game and then you can use that accordingly. For example, tank could work on exp deny crittering on the maps such as temple against zerglings and that way the zerglings are underdeveloped. Or tank can help quickly push the lanes in solar and that way most of the action could take place on the enemy maps.

Just a thought I had. I don't think that every single hero needs to fit that category of longevity.

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Zenthon » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:03 pm

Weak early and strong late game is fine, tested and done with Rine and Zlot. Strong early and weak late is just annoying for everyone.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Nubbins » Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:14 pm

Nothing wrong with a stronger early/mid game. Just don't want some heroes to be completely useuless late game
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:04 am

reapers done for now next hero?

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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby Nubbins » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:48 am

How about the 3 reincarnation ults :D

Would give you an excuse for removing damage reflect on ultra/bruta for the time being.
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Re: Hero reworking discussion

Postby akuma » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:54 am

well i want thor to keep his as it fit's his role good but ultra and and immo can go with it as it doesn't fit there role to well

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